ewe-canon and epilogue-canon

[marguerite_26]

Last night, frayach posted several questions about canon!Harry. The questions are really interesting and the answers even more so. Do go add your 2 cents. It's very much a refocusing on Canon which often gets lost in all the porn around here. LOL.

Anyway - in my response I mentioned how in my head I have two canons: ewe-canon and epilogue-canon, for which I was promptly and good-naturedly laughed at. :D

But it's true. I have this on/off switch in my head for when I write fic. There are two canons: one where the epilogue happened and I MUST satisfy all that was entailed in those 19 years later pages to be content to write and one where canon ends with Harry being 17.

I'm not talking about some official definition of canon, I KNOW that everything contained in the books is 'canon,' but I need to know...

When you pick up a pen (or sit at your keyboard) to start a fic - does your mind contain the epilogue no matter what you are writing about? If you are writing something school-age or just after school or anything that does not include the epilogue, do you consider your work AU? Does the epilogue sit in the back of your mind poking at you saying 'what you are writing cannot exists because I exist?'

For me, it does not. The epilogue just... disappears when I write something that is ewe. Canon becomes the ewe-canon that I truly believe in and I hold to JKRs work religiously, and try to respect what she has given us without any guilt of those last few pages being ignored. My creativity would be stifled if I believed that there was only One True Canon while writing. I find it suffocating to think about.

Comments

[bootsy-mine.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in the epilogue. It is a vicious lie. There is no epilogue. After the battle, the books end right there. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I do know what you mean but I didn't like the epilogue and I think that's what fanfiction is all about, making the story go the way you wanted it to. In all honesty, I'd be happy to ignore books six and seven entirely.

There is also the idea of this is so incredible that I want more and I guess some people might think there's a reason for the epilogue in those stories. But as for me, I shall remain in my epilogue free fantasy.

I hope this has helped.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

I get that. I think a lot of people live in the 'ewe-canon' world very happily. I enjoy switching between the two as I honestly love living in the epilogue sometimes and playing with all the toys it gives me. :D

I think what I find challenging is trying to write something that goes against the epilogue if I wasn't able to 'believe' in ewe-canon.

For me, if I didn't truly believe in ewe-canon, then half of my fandom love would be dead. In other fandoms (BtVS and Angel) when the last episode aired and I looked what canon left me with... my muse took a holiday and I just couldn't go on in that fandom. My mind hated the idea of writing an AU every time I picked up a pen, if that makes any sense. :/

[bootsy-mine.livejournal.com]

Being a Buffy and Angel fan that makes perfect sense.

I had the hardest time accepting that Angel could fall in love with Cordelia. I could understand his having affection for her but not being "in love" with her. To me Angel's one and only true love should always have been Buffy. He went for a century before he found her, I have a hard time believing that after a year or two he could fall head over heels for someone else.

When Buffy ended with every potential slayer being a slayer, it really ruined it for me. What made Buffy special was that there was only 1 slayer. I always thought that when she died the second time a new girl should have been called but they didn't pursue that avenue and I could accept it since she lost her place in line after her first death.

I was just as disappointed in Angel's end. It ends with the beginning of what appears will be an epic battle, the fabric of the world torn apart. Not a good place to end.

I can totally understand it.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

*nods*

when Buffy ended, there didn't feel like any more story to be told as you said, so I moved on to Angel and was deep in Wesley love... yeah... I just couldn't go on. Then having to make every new piece of fiction try to explain that Epic battle (or worse bring Wesley back to life) or fall into that 'everything is an AU' pit... that just made my muse shrivel up.

So I love that in HP, I can just throw out that epilogue thorn when I choose to and feel no guilt about it. :D

[potteresque_ire]

I don't believe in the epilogue. It is a vicious lie. There is no epilogue. After the battle, the books end right there.

My personal epilogue: Harry got his roast beef sandwich after all and then went to bed to have a good night's sleep. :)

[bootsy-mine.livejournal.com]

I can live with your epilogue.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

My personal epilogue: Harry got his roast beef sandwich after all and then went to bed to have a good night's sleep. with draco. :P

[potteresque_ire]

I think if canon ends with Harry's roast beed sandwich I may cry to the beaurty and poignancy of it, no joke :D.

As to sleeping with Draco... ah, I actually would want some build up and UST first!

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I think I click on your posts just for your little octopus!

I'm like you in some ways in that canon stops existing at the point I diverge from it, especially the Epilogue. Having said that, I do think it's AU when I diverge, but it doesn't matter!

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

Squishy is a Sextopus. Just so you know. *gropes you*

Having said that, I do think it's AU when I diverge, but it doesn't matter! :DDD

But do you feel like you are writing and AU the same way you would if you were, say, to write something that diverges from the end of HBP for example. I mean... I know it's an AU intellectually, but I don't feel like I'm ignoring a bit of canon in the same way I would if I ignored a chapter of book I didn't like or an episode of a show.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

No, it's an intellectual appreciation of the fact only ;-) Feeling wise it seems perfectly respectful ;-)

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

exactly. :D

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

Darling, when YOU diverge, it's canon. In fact, all seven books should be rewritten by you to finally start making sense.

I still think it's an octopus, too. When someone gets too close to Squishy to squish him, his two super-secret hidden tentacles lash out for a bit of erotic strangulation.

[fourth_rose]

Hey, I haven't gotten to use this icon in a long time ;)

In my personal HP universe, the epilogue is a weird dream Harry had the night after the final battle, nothing more - therefore, it's not a factor for me when I write. I don't consider EWE fics AU, either - I like AUs, but they're a different genre to me.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

the epilogue is a weird dream Harry had the night after the final battle, nothing more

ha! I loved that bit in Not in the Hands of Boys! One of my favourite ways i have seen the epilogue dealt with. :D

I like AUs, but they're a different genre to me.
that's how I feel, too.

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

the epilogue is a weird dream Harry had the night after the final battle, nothing more

♥ ♥ ♥

JKR should have thought of that - makes the novel much more postmodern and classy. :)

[fourth_rose]

*g* I first had that idea for a post-DH fic of mine, but somehow I liked the concept so much that I included it into my own personal canon ;)

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

It's just... wow. I can't believe it never occured to me. You totally created countless interpretations of canon for me (in addition to the multitudes I already have in my head). Just think of all the options, what could be going on in Harry's head to make him dream this... *drifts off*

♥

[fourth_rose]

*g* Like I said, I worked quite a bit with this idea in a WIP of mine, where I used the "epilogue dream"as a kind of post-traumatic stress reaction after the final battle that Harry slowly overcomes in the course of the story.

you totally created countless interpretations of canon for me

Yay! I'm always for looking at canon from a different angle, so that makes me very glad :))

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

I accept lots of different interpretations of canon as long as they make sense within the framework they themselves impose, but I just love discovering these little details. Yay details! It's like the opening sentence of the epilogue, 'the air was crisp as an apple' or something like that - for me, thinking this is a signal that canon Harry might be consuming untradeable magical substances. He gets these visions with the pretty sparkling mist and sees other characters' eye colour despite the mist and distance... Looks like he's magically high:) (I think grey_hunter even wrote a story featuring a similar bunny.)

[potteresque_ire]

When you pick up a pen (or sit at your keyboard) to start a fic - does your mind contain the epilogue no matter what you are writing about?

Fpr H/D, not really. I take the two characters out and the magic world and its objective components (the magic, its history etc), but the personal events are very much fluid in my head (and now that when I've forgotten 90% of what happened in the books *heads desk*, even moreso)(need to re-read soon) , the epilogue especially because it's so disconnected with the rest of the book. I don't treat EWE the same as AU for the latter reason too because the way I see AU is that it directly negates the logic of the canon, and the epilogue ... there's really no logic to its placement in canon at all. The story would have been complete with or without.

For next/cross-gen though, the epilogue is almost always the first thing I consider. It's just not something I can totally ignore because otherwise we'd have no next gen to begin with! :) And in my mind I'll decide whether I will want to keep the epilogue pretty much as it (as in Memoria), or I will just take parts of it (as in that hypothetical H/Sc I have :D ). I tend to start writing H/D without a plan and just let things run its course, but for cross-next gen, the one DEFINITE decision I have in my head is whether and how to circumvent the epilogue and how I will specifically make the characterization of canon!Harry and Draco work in the context of the pairing; I wouldn't start plotting the story without the latter.

[moonlitdark.livejournal.com]

This makes a lot of sense to me, and I like your definitions. Although I'm not a fan of the epilogue, I think both 'canons' can present very different (and equally interesting) results in fanfiction, and I can understand how it would be necessary to switch off to one in order to write the other. :)

[lordhellebore]

Canon becomes the ewe-canon that I truly believe in

Same here. I mean, obviously, I write AUs that don't match EWE-canon, but when I write a fic with the intention to stick to "all of canon"...that's EWE to me.

[faithwood.livejournal.com]

When you pick up a pen (or sit at your keyboard) to start a fic - does your mind contain the epilogue no matter what you are writing about?

Yes. There are tiny characterization bits in there that I don't want to ignore. Even if they are just guidelines.

If you are writing something school-age or just after school or anything that does not include the epilogue, do you consider your work AU?

Definitely.

Does the epilogue sit in the back of your mind poking at you saying 'what you are writing cannot exists because I exist?'

Nope. Never bothered me.

My replies are short because I left all my words on Frayach's post. :D

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

What's wrong with having two sets of canon? I think at this point in fandom, I'm much more concerned with characterisation. I think a lot of people miss it's entirely possible to have canon Harry in any type of setting.

And gah! All of these delightful discussions while I am at work. I hate being indisposed of between the hours of 9 and 5 :P

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

Canon Harry in any type of setting.

Yes! Agreed. :)

The thing is, with Epilogue fics when Harry is older, we have to create a more mature version of him, and it's always difficult to determine which prejudices will be more ingrained in his personality, which impulses will be downplayed, etc. It depends on his experiences in the nineteen years we don't get to see, so we make up these experiences, and some of them can have very strong and different impact on Harry's personality. It's such a fine line.

I think, most importantly, a story has to be a wholesome and plausible narrative. If the inner workings are satisfactory, it is bridged with canon in a reader's mind more easily. *random hugs*

[gryffindorj.livejournal.com]

Great link! It's so interesting to look at people's answers. My favorites are the hardline "NOs". I like to see what people could think would never happen. "No Harry would never stick his dick in anyone but Ginny" ;p.

I am similar when I write. Sometimes it's all EWE and all those things are never there and I put them away, other times it's right there in the front of my mind when I need it. I also enjoy the picking and choosing of what's in the epilogue, that can be fun too.

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

"No Harry would never stick his dick in anyone but Ginny."

Which means that many people think that Harry has serious unresolvable issues that affect his sexuality? This sounds just like something JKR could do to her main character. *g*

*pets Harry* You can have anyone you want, dear.

[gryffindorj.livejournal.com]

*pets Harry* You can have anyone you want, dear.
LOL! Yes you can Harry, as long as it's not anything that squicks me.

[cassie-black12.livejournal.com]

The Epilogue isn't in my head at all when I'm writing fic. I've pretty much Obliviated all memory of it from my brain. Unless of course there is some lovely next-gen action going on, and then it becomes a necessary evil.

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think that when I'm writing an EWE fic, I'm not thinking about the epilogue.

Ugh, I want to leave a pithy comment but I'm too tired.

*pointless comment is pointless*

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

Well, you shouldn't think about the epilogue when you're writing EWE fic, right? Your source narrative is reduced to seven books sans epilogue.

*is pointlessly supportive*

*hugs*

*is unconditionally supportive of the idea of you writing anything in general*

*more hugs*

Oh, look! It's a hugs!comment!

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

♥

Well, Faith made a point about taking characterisation points from things that happen in the epilogue, and I agree with that. I think this question is hard for me, because when I write epilogue compliant fic, Harry is straight and in love with Ginny, so it's just a whole different process. I don't think I've ever written epilogue compliant H/D.

*hugs you back loads*

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

♥

You know, no matter how many times I read it, to my mind there is nothing in the Epilogue that says that Harry is definitely straight and in love with Ginny. It shows that he CAN be and IS LIKELY to be. Because it [the Epilogue] shows so little, and we have to assume so much to make for all the missing links between the end of the Deathly Hallows and the Epilogue. Basically, the Epilogue allows Harry to be gay and married to Ginny (who says that he must be unhappy because of that?), or to be married to Ginny but not necessarily in love with her, or... (I could give about twenty versions here, none of them contradicting the logical premise of the Epilogue.)

It's not my wishful thinking because I ship Harry with someone else - I KNEW Harry would marry Ginny from the moment I read that Ron had a sister. I just saw the paradigm (sidekick + sidekick, hero + sidekick's sibling) and, with a sad sigh, prepared myself for the standard outcome. I did't get my hopes too high. *g*

The thing is, JKR wanted to impress her happy ending on her readers so badly that it backfired. There are many things - from word choice to setting choice to the structure of the Epilogue - that make this glossy ending too forced. Besides, the fact that it's so prim and happy and glossed over compared to the rest of the series, it requires a SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF to a massive degree. And when the reader is already caught in a limbo, suspending that damn disbelief for JKR's sake - well, it's only logical that they seek to fill in the gaps and make it more plausible. And how do we fill in the gaps? Adding details.

Fan fic, here we come!

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree completely that the epilogue can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. That nod. :D But I just haven't been inspired by an H/D story idea that would result in those particular events taking place. Hmm. Actually I have, Shadow Play could easily end up with each man married with kids, standing on Platform 9 3/4 and still secretly fucking each other's brains out.

And, yeah, the epilogue could have been written with more thought, complexity and acknowledgement of the losses suffered. I love parts of DH beyond reason, but many aspects were rushed and clumsy. She just wanted to get it finished.

But it gave us the next gen kinds, so I can't hold it entirely against her. And when I first read it I was so desperately relieved that she didn't kill Harry (or Draco) and that he got his happy ending, that I forgave her the simplistic nature of it.

And, yes, fic gives up loads of opportunity to add layers, complexity and darkness to post war events.

(Have you thought about your Draco/Al fic yet?)

xxx

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

Next gen kids make me forgive everything. But not forget. *is evil*

*smirk* I have this little notebook, you see. I'm filling it with Draco/Al plot bunnies and outlines. Long outlines. *sigh* I somehow ended up with thirteen deadlines, half of them this month, and RL has reduced my writing time to, er, zero at the moment. It makes me feel awful. I have no idea how I'm getting out of this, but I have to. Somehow. And then my Draco/Al time will come.

Why is H/D fluff so difficult? I wrote Harry/Ginny fluff! I should be able to do ANYTHING!

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

H/D fluff is difficult because they hate each other, lol? Well, maybe not hate as of the end of DH sans epilogue, but their feelings for each other are nowhere near cute, fluffy love. Harry/Ginny fluff makes total sense, but it's the tension and conflict that makes H/D interesting to me.

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

I was actually dreaming of writing angry tension between Harry and Ginny, love-hate UST, lock, stock, and two smokin' wands (me and my weird ideas, LOL), but I got to write this (http://community.livejournal.com/takingitinturns/20907.html#cutid1).

Oh, so they hate each other? OMG now I get it! *g* *nod* My fluffy hd_smoochfest fic has five discarded drafts. *facepalm* I guess I have to admit that my uberdetailed plans won't work and write something to avoid Cheryl's intense displeasure.

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

*checks out your link*

*winces* Cheryl's displeasure is a fierce and mighty thing.

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

I'm so terrified. Cheryl is my fluff!icon, but I feel that I will never be able to approach her divine fluffiness. My fluffiest bunnies are still dirty and their fur is matted with blood. *broods*

I'll just throw out... pretty much all of my H/D plot and hope for the best. *sniffs*

I'm thrilled that you were curious enough about it to check it out. It's not what I usually write, though.

[alafaye]

I didn't like the seventh book. I'll start with that.

To me, JK let us all down with it. It was good, it was ok--but it wasn't the finale the other books had lead us to. It was like riding a roller coaster, not knowing what the ride is going to do, and you're climbing and you're expecting an awesome adrenaline rush from the fall...and finding out that the hill you were climbing was a baby hill on the kiddie roller coasters.

And the epilogue? Cliche. Completely. It was the end of a romance novel--in the end, Harry ends up with the things he missed out on in his own childhood and his school rival got his "just deserts". Too cliche.

While I acknowledge that the epilogue is canon, I'm a fan!fiction writer and reader--I can choose to ignore it. I happily ignore it. But I also don't mind reading the stories that take the epilogue and find fun ways of destroying that cliche, fairy tale ending. Divorce or cheating or what-have-you.

...I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't care. ...I think.

[tray-la-la.livejournal.com]

first, can i just squee over how many awesome convos there are oing on right now??! *squee*

now that that's done, i must say i am totally with you on the 'two canons' thing!! there's something very distinct in my mind when it comes to ewe fic. the tone, the characterizations, everything. maybe this is because i've read so much pre-dh fic that continues to serve as a referent, but many authors still capture that ewe essence for me.

when i write, i can definitely separate the two out. although if it's ewe, but one of them is married, or has a kid, i do usually dip into epilogue canon (e.g. i won't make up a random wife for draco; it will be astoria).

[tray-la-la.livejournal.com]

oh, wait, i forgot some stuff! :D

in terms of au thing, i don't think about it much, tbh. but i would say i generally don't think of ewe as au. if someone re-wrote 6th year, for example, than that would be au to me. (but what's ar? is that about space or something? bah, it's all so confusing!! :P) i agree with pie that distinctions become more relevant when the next gen kids are in the picture. if teddy's around, even though he's non-epilogue canon, i'm all, "where's albus???"

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I understand both positions. But whatever you choose, it seems that readership is somewhat divided into camps of those who feel bound to canon and those who could care less. So the readership, I think, is somewhat fractured.

[enchanted-jae.livejournal.com]

Epilogue? I don't recall no stinkin' epilogue.

*shifty eyes*

[frayach.livejournal.com]

I feel the same way you do. As long as Harry & Draco are IC (see my thinky thoughts on my latest post) I'm not too bothered by whether the story is epilogue compliant or not.

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

Epilogue & EWE canon.

EXACTLY!!! That's how it works for me.

I tried to answer all these questions but it got longer than LJ comment standard allows. *facepalm* I might need to go on and on... because the questionnaire is based on the assumption that a text can have only ONE possible interpretation for the reader, not allowing for multiple readings and eventualities.

VOLDIE SAYZ NO!1

But seriously, if we speak about canon, and what Harry appears to be based on the text in its entirety, it means a pretty damn lot whether the text in its entirety includes the epilogue or not. The epilogue is a significant part of the text that affects the narrative pretty damn substantially, y'know. YOU ARE ENTIRELY CORRECT, DARLING. Two source texts = multiply your canon versions of Harry by two.

*squishes you in solidarity*

When I have at least two hours of free time when I am able to stare at the screen without cringing in pain and exhaustion, I'm going to:

a)finish writing you Teddy/James
b)post my answers to frayach's questions (i.e. celebrate my verbosity on the subject of canon!Harry's diversity)

[chantefable.livejournal.com]

Editing having read frayach's round-up post: aha! So I guess the questionnaire was intentionally designed that way (for easier data gathering?), but frayach herself acknowledges lots of possibilities and outcomes. *g*

VOLDIE SAYS: SLY AND AWESOME!1

I still have the urge to do a blah blah blah post about Harry... even though I basically agree with all of frayach's conclusions:) I just don't know how to shut up. :)) Do tell me to shut up.